Today we're going to be talking about, out of sight out of mind. Well, I think that is a huge misconception. I just want to start with that but I think many people that, you know, even maybe advice that you see online, you'll hear things like out of sight, out of mind, there's one particular dating coach that I find extremely unhelpful. I won't name names, but their approach is very aggressive and in your face and almost gets you terrified that if you're not in your ex's face, they're going to stop thinking about you. They're going to move on. And I think it comes across as very toxic and hostile almost it's so aggressive or avoidant. I mean, it would scare you to death and you'd back off faster. Yeah. But this idea of out of sight out of mind is something that I think is a major misconception about human beings, right?
Craig (01:50):
When it comes to attachment, when we form a bond and emotional connection with somebody, we on some level, keep that bond forever. It goes on in our unconscious forever. It may not be as intense or the desire may not be there to be with that person, but you don't forget people that you truly bonded with. Right. Right. You want to hear about my Adam theory? Yes. I've read not all that long ago. And I don't claim to be an expert on this, but not long ago, someone who was writing about attachment, it's an article. I was reading talked about how Adam's work and if two atoms are attached to each other, at any point, they always, always are attracted to each other again and have something in common and have some connection. Okay. And the person was trying to say, so it is with human beings that once you've really had a connection with someone, it doesn't go away.
Craig (02:53):
No, it doesn't go away. And the reason that we're talking about this is that, you know, talk a lot about when somebody ends a relationship, not contacting them and respecting their decision and that we both understand that is absolutely terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. It might be one of the scariest things that you have to do or feel like you have to do in your life. And I understand that because I've been in that place, I've been in that situation where I had to do that and not knowing if it's the right decision is, you know, it's really scary. If I stop reaching out, they're going to forget me. They're going to forget all about me if I'm not reaching out, out of sight, out of mind.
Craig (03:42):
Margaret, do you have any idea where this concept may have even come from?
Margaret (03:47):
I think there's another early process. Of course, that has to do with that. And that is that again, if we are nurtured and cared for enough as little ones, eventually we learn to hold on to kind of a snapshot of mom so that when we're left alone or in our crib or our bed or whatever. And we don't see her and she's not near us. We can call up what her face looks like or remember what her voice sounds like. Yeah. Okay. So there is a way we can kind of take people with us. Yeah. And even though we're often not aware of it, most of us adults calm ourselves down somehow by getting back in touch with that, now we don't have time to do that in a split second, nor are we terribly aware of it. But if you've not had the experience of being able to do that, I'm sure you would believe everywhere in your heart that this person's just going to forget.
Craig (04:46):
It probably came from somebody that has an anxious attachment style and they were thinking, and that was their ultimate fear out of sight, out of mind. And for some reason it became a mainstream thought or process maybe amongst the anxious people.
Margaret (05:05):
Right. And it certainly was not a big idea with anybody who was into the unconscious because not much is out of mind.
Craig (05:14):
But you know, it's important to understand that when we form this bond, it's not just the, the thought of, "I love this person". It's a real connection that hits us on deep levels. And that just doesn't, you never kind of stop caring about them. I care about people that I dated many years ago and you know, it doesn't mean that I would date them again, but I certainly wouldn't forget them. I could call up their voice. Right. And if, if you're really struggling to call up their voice, I had somebody tell me this week, they couldn't call up their ex's voice, right. Then you probably had a massive trauma with your caregivers.
Margaret (05:59):
Sometimes it's helpful to look at a picture in order to be able to grieve because grieving is difficult If you can't call up the person's picture and or voice. That's interesting. Yeah. Sometimes it's helpful to look at a picture, even though it will make you sad, it may help you grieve. And I realized that after working with families who were too crazy to have people have time to internalize the picture of mom and so forth and so on. And I realized that they couldn't grieve. And finally it occurred to me to ask them to bring in the family album and that would do it. They would get to see the pictures of the lost people and so forth. And sometimes that would help them be able to grieve.
Craig (06:42):
And that makes me think of clients that I've worked with even many years ago, locally, that kids that I worked with had never met their father, never even seen a picture of their father and their behavior was just outrageous. They couldn't calm themselves down. They were extremely, I remember one kid was so hyperactive. Right. He had never seen his father never even seen a picture. Right. So how could he grieve that? Yeah.
Margaret (07:11):
And I've heard many people say, well, out of sight, out of my father, isn't involved. And I would say, no, you're supposed to have two parents watch TV for five minutes. You find that out. This is a huge issue always. Right. And if mom is willing to give up the information, sometimes she is sometimes she isn't, it's a huge help for this kid to know as much as he can know, because he has degrees.
Craig (07:32):
Yeah. So out of sight, out of mind is it's very helpful to know that when you're in no contact, you're leaving your ex alone. You're allowing them to sit with the decision. You're allowing them to start to wonder if it's the right idea. They're not going to forget about you. On their end, they're going to think about you. It depends upon what particularly happened in your relationship. Why it ended the circumstances, all of that is going to affect that. But at the end of the day, they are going to think about you.
Margaret (08:09):
Yes they are. And you hear people often say too, "well, did they ever love me? Maybe they never loved me. And they just kind of strung me along." No, they wouldn't have stayed around as long as they did. Okay. So they did have some genuine feeling for you and know they're not going to forget you, even if they want to.
Craig (08:26):
Yeah. And one of the things that is so difficult about being in no contact is you're constantly obsessing about if they're thinking about you, have they moved on, will you, will you ever hear from them again? And every minute feels like an eternity. Right?
Margaret (08:48):
And I think that's a great observation because anytime we're talking about anything that relates to unconscious material, it's important to remember that the unconscious doesn't do time. Everything is forever and everything is blissful. And so, it can slow down and seem like forever and time can get all this story and you're not going crazy. That's just kinda how it works.
Craig (09:13):
So it's awful because let's say you're sending there for 10 minutes by yourself. You might have a hundred thoughts about where are they at? What are they doing? Where are they looking at their social media, looking at their Facebook, obsessing about the last argument, obsessing about the last things they said to you, wondering if they're ever going to reach out wondering if they still care about you. And it just feels like that 10 minute period feels like an entire day. Yeah, sure. And I can remember literally sitting in my room after the Applebee's breakup in particular on the bed and just not being able to stop thinking about it. Just, I couldn't think about anything else. I, I couldn't even be distracted by a video game or TV or anything. I just was staring at old messages or, you know, obsessing about, will they contact me today? It's been three days and it just feels like an endless, you're trapped in this endless time and moment of uncertainty and fear and just being fearful.
Margaret (10:28):
Terrified. Yes. Being separated always is scary. Yeah.
Craig (10:32):
Yeah. But it's just, this moment feels endless. If that makes sense.
Margaret (10:36):
It does. You were talking about endless moments when we talk about the unconscious, this feeling must be forever too. The bliss thing didn't work out, but this abandonment thinks seems forever.
Craig (10:46):
Yeah. And the other thing that you probably think, and I know I was thinking, this is that, you know, "was our relationship meaningless to them". Right. And you start to obsess about it. Did they ever even care about me? How could they do this to me? I don't understand how could they want this connection, this dynamic that we had to go away, you know, especially if you're in a relationship where you're getting along so well and you know, you thought it was relatively healthy relationship, you know, then it's just like, you're, you can't even find faults. You're not, you know what I mean? You're just like, I don't even usually get angry at them. You know,
Margaret (11:28):
It feels like a physical wound, almost
Craig (11:31):
Pain is physical. It can be literally physical. It physically hurts for me. And, as I worked on understanding breakups more and more and how it relates to our attachment. I understand that the anxiety that I was feeling after my breakup was very similar, the anxiety I had as a kid. And I didn't understand that, that, you know, because my mom and dad were split up when I was about a year and a half old, and my dad left my mom to be with another woman. My mom had a lot of anxiety or so I can imagine. And so she was very stressed out about the bills and not being able to afford the house. And She was afraid that my dad would take me away. She would catastrophize.
Margaret (12:24):
The woman has to be a nervous wreck. So you picked that up, babies, pick it up,
Craig (12:29):
I absorbed all that anxiety. And then, you know, having to physically leave to be at my dad's house around a stepmother that I didn't like. And I got those, you know, we talked about me having the intuition that she wasn't good. And I think, you know, she probably has several diagnoses
Craig (12:55):
But when I had to go over there, I would cry all the time. I would cry on the weekends. I would cry being away from my mom,
Margaret (13:02):
I was going to say, you probably worried about your anxious mother, kids worry about parents. Sure.
Craig (13:08):
And I, you know, having to go there on the summer, I would go to camp and, you know, looking at it now, it was a really nice camp. They had go carts and swimming and all kinds of fun arts and crafts. And it was probably a wonderful camp, but I would literally be sick every morning. They would want us to go swimming. First thing in the morning, I would have earaches. I wouldn't, I would be crying at camp. I would, I would want to go home.
Margaret (13:36):
I also think the water would be cold first thing.
Craig (13:40):
And so it was so traumatic for me being away from my mom. And so I experienced a lot of the same symptoms, you know, as an adult, going through my breakup
Margaret (13:54):
And thank you for sharing that, Craig, that's generous of you. And that's exactly what happens that if we have early separations, the separation and adulthood calls, all that stuff.
Craig (14:04):
Yeah. So I think, you know, people that are more secure and had a healthier childhood and connection with their parents, the breakups aren't as painful to them
Margaret (14:17):
Still painful, but not as, yeah,
Craig (14:19):
They are painful, but I'm just saying they probably don't experience it the same way because I, you know, like with trauma that it stays in the body. Right. You want to talk a little bit, you know, there's a book called the trauma the body keeps score.
Margaret (14:35):
The Body Keeps the Score. We'll do a whole thing on that one day, but the body, the body absorbs trauma. Yes, absolutely. So your body was anxious and it was no wonder you had earaches.
Craig (14:47):
Yeah. Probably very reflective of how I felt when was little being away from home and away from mom, is how I felt in the break actually. And I didn't understand that. I mean, how could I have known that? So many of you, if you, as you take a deeper look at your issues in your childhood, you may realize, Oh, I was sent to my grandma's house for two years or I was shipped off to another country
Margaret (15:15):
Right. And then you have to remind yourself, I don't have to go there now. I'm a, I'm a grown up and yes, I have all those feelings, but I don't have to go to another country. I don't have to go to my grandma's. I can stay right here. I'm a grownup now. And it's important to do that, to reorient yourself to the present. Yeah,
Craig (15:32):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I think it was for me, that timeless feeling of feeling devastated and separated and scared is what was coming out of my unconscious when I was in no contact and not reaching out to my ex.
Margaret (15:49):
Never have we said no contact was easy. No.
Craig (15:53):
We understand why the out of sight out of mind is so scary that your unconscious is like, "they're never going to come back. They're going to forget about me." Right. And that's just not the case.
Margaret (16:08):
Well, that makes me think of the movie home alone, which was a big hit and lots of people watched it and it probably speaks to a primal fear that the family will forget me and leave me behind. And they did. I watched it, the poor kid got left behind it's everybody's worst fear.
Craig (16:28):
Now the other thing is that what's so difficult is that usually the last interactions with an ex are, "I don't care about you. I don't want to talk to you anymore. This is over, I'm never going to give you another chance" because they're trying to separate from you and, and put that wall up. So they don't think you're going to keep manipulating them or trying to harass them or change their mind. Right. And so because those interactions, they they're. So even cruel at times, it's exasperating, the you're going to forget about me. Oh my gosh. If I don't do it,
Margaret (17:08):
She said, she's never gonna think about me again. That she's done with me. She's through with me. She's never given me another chance. So why should I think she'll ever think about me again? Yeah.
Craig (17:17):
But what happens is, as you leave them alone and they have some space to, you know, think about things, realize that the issue is may have not been as bad as they were feeling at the time or unhappy about certain things. Those issues aren't as intense for them, that all plays out in their unconscious, Margaret. And you wanted to talk about now they have the same,
Margaret (17:42):
They have the same unconscious responses that you do. So even if you did the breaking up, okay, you might feel at first, then you might feel a little better for a little while, but eventually it will catch up to you. And you're going to grieve this loss also. And you're going to wonder if you made the right decision and people say, well, if there are no contact, but I heard from that ubiquitously third party, you know, the third party that shows up everywhere and says, I saw so and so out at a bar. And they looked very happy with 12 new guys. Okay. You're always going to hear that one, but is your ex partner liable to go off and live happily ever after with the next person they meet,
Craig (18:21):
Not likely. It's very, very unlikely.
Margaret (18:24):
It may take them awhile to get around, to grieving the relationship with you, but they will. Okay. Yeah.
Craig (18:31):
And you know, we have this fear that they are going to see our ex as this amazing person, the way that we see them, but that often doesn't happen. And, you know, even like with the Applebee's situation with that girl, she thought she was going to date this new guy. And what did he do? He broke up with her to be with the girl that he really wanted to be with. Beaky buzzer wound up marrying that girl. Yeah, he was on a rebound is where he was. So, and what happened is the girl that he had longed for, for, for years saw that he got into a relationship with my ex. So that's when she finally wanted him because he became unavailable. And then the minute he had the opportunity, he dropped my ex and she told me that she admitted it. She came clean and said, you deserve to know this. So his rebound work in a way. Yeah. Yeah. but she told me that karma got me and you deserve to know,
Margaret (19:42):
Oh yeah, that was good of her.
Craig (19:46):
But you know, one thing that you said to me earlier is that even for them, the, the dumper that they're on some level insulted that the relationship
Margaret (20:03):
Are always insulted when our initial fantasy that this will be perfect and blissful doesn't work out. Absolutely never is a human being happy with the end of a relationship. Even if you, for whatever reason, think you need to end it. Yeah. You grieve too. You're shocked. And you grief too. Yeah.
Craig (20:23):
So have comfort in knowing that you are not going to be out of their mind, even if they, even, if they just said, I'm not going to think about him. I don't want him back. Even if they consciously did that, you're still gonna come up in their unconscious
Margaret (20:39):
And there's still going to be that favorite song you enjoyed that night
Craig (20:43):
Or the movies that you loved, or that hobby that you liked, you know, I'm sure they always saw that thing that you, no matter where they're going to go, you're going to come up. Right. You're going to come up in their unconscious it's it's inescapable. I'm sure that anytime any of my exes see like, like a star Wars movie coming out, they all know they're thinking of me. I know it. There's just no way they're escaping that. No, they can't just get it. And isn't that nice. Yeah. There are certain things they won't be able to escape. Like if I see a new Scooby doo movie come out, one of my other exes will come up or something. You know what I mean? Other things from other exes of when I see things that they enjoyed it come, they come up in my unconscious and that's okay.
Margaret (21:28):
And, and, you know, a good thing is if you can remember that you enjoyed the relationship for at least as long as it lasted and every time a loss comes up, you work through it a little further. Yeah.
Craig (21:38):
The point is, is that out of sight out of mind? No. No, we disagree. And that's why we go on and on about the unconscious, because we want you to understand why that is. Absolutely. So hopefully you found this video helpful.